The joys and woes of hurt/comfort

[amatara]

So maspalio requested a Londo and G’Kar h/c fic, which is coming along rather nicely, and has been bringing me lots of writerly joy! However, now that I’m nearing the finish, the Great Inescapable Question inevitably poses itself: is the stuff I wrote any good? Which in turn leads to another question, one I see popping up time and again but that is seldom properly answered: what does make a good h/c fic, anyway?

Or, no, maybe I should rephrase that to: is there any such thing as a good hurt/comfort fic? Because – well, let’s be fair here: not everyone seems convinced of that. In fact, “h/c equals badfic” is right over on the big heap of cliché objections to genres, along with “gen is boring”, “slash is icky” and “het is Mary Sue”. Now, I can understand perfectly that not everyone is into everything; a type of fic loved to death by reader A can be reader B’s absolute squick, and simply not do anything for reader C at all. Personally, it took me a long time to give slash a chance, and even now (though there are exceptions *g*) I tend to leave the explicit well enough alone. And that’s fine, isn’t it? But why do we have the tendency to take our own dislikes and preferences and try to squeeze everyone else into them, expecting they'd make a good fit? Regarding h/c specifically – the most extensive piece of meta I read about that was a ten-page long essay (okay, so I skimmed, not read it) meticulously explaining why all h/c is supposedly bad quality, the main argument being that the meta author defined h/c as a type of fic that portrays excessive angst in an inherently OOC and canon-defying manner. Hence, all h/c is rubbish; point proven. Which is not really a fair argument in any way; I mean, come on!

So, assuming we leave aside the assumption that h/c is bad by definition – what does it take to write a good story in the genre? First of all, what is “good”, really? In any case, “good” is not simply “anything people like (except for those with bad taste)”. Apart from the fact that “bad taste” is a touchy concept in itself, plenty of people dislike things that are considered qualitatively “good”, or love things that can be considered “bad”. Take music for example –some rather awful songs have been made over the past few decades, but some of those I like anyway: because they bring back memories, or they have a nice rhythm, or they just plain make me feel happy, for no reason at all. With fics, it’s the same thing; so, “good” does not necessarily equal “popular”, and vice versa. Point in case: FanFiction.net proves without a doubt that plenty of people like awfully written mpreg (with which I’m not implying that all mpreg is afwully written, as really, I wouldn’t know – but there is certainly bad mpreg, and it is being liked). Similarly, plenty of people like awfully written h/c... So: easy, huh? Except that my ambition isn’t to write a popular story, but a decent one (though I won’t lie and claim I don’t want it both, if I could *g*). Thus, the question still remains.

One could argue that a good h/c fic story is one that fits into a larger narrative. One where h/c isn’t the objective of the story, but rather a means to an end. The same could be said about fluff, or pr0n, or any other specific sub-genre really. And the argument would make perfect sense, except that some of the best fics I’ve read do not fit that description at all. In fact, I have an endless admiration for fic writers who manage a story that is pure fluff, or pwop, or h/c, without making any excuse for the inherent cliché-ness of that premise, and proceeding to execute said premise in such a way that it leaves me utterly astounded at their skill. (penknife is such a writer, andrastewhite is another, and I’m sure there are plenty more around!)

So, if plot isn’t a prerequisite, then what is? Characterization is certainly a part of it, at least to me: I love my canon, and I do not want my favorite character to turn into a blubbering wimp at the first sign of trouble. Nor do I want characters who are known for their mutual snarking to swoon into each other’s arms without a very plausible excuse. Realism? That’s harder. Personally, I don’t need a fic to be entirely plausible in every way in order to enjoy it – though there are limits, of course, and I prefer at least some solid basis for my suspension of disbelief. Then there’s also the fact that I’m really not so much for the comfort-sex thing, particularly not when the hurt has been physical or (god forbid!) sexual in nature. There is at least some physical exercise involved in a good display of lovemaking, so a character that has just been stabbed, beaten, mind-raped and left out to freeze will most likely not be capable and/or interested.

But the main thing for a h/c fic, in my opinion, is dosage. You want your story to have a point, so, just like with a good joke, you don’t give away too much in advance. Oh, you can slip in some teasers, of course, as that’s really half of the fun – but you don’t put your readers through a pages-long angstfest, just to have them discover that, by the time you reach your oh-so-carefully-prepared emotional climax, they simply can’t be bothered anymore. (In fact, overdosing on the hurt was of my main gripes with Peter David’s B5 Centauri Trilogy: the first book, at least to me, read somewhat like a 200-page Londo h/c – only minus the “c”.) So: lay it on gently. It’s no use spilling all the beans before you’re halfway through. And, of course, a lot depends on the characters you’re working with: realistically, a Londo & Vir h/c could be much “comforty-er” (is that a word?) than a Londo & G’Kar one.

What do you think makes for good h/c; what do you expect from a story like that? If anyone has some good ones to recommend, that’s very welcome too! It would seem there are presently no Londo and G'Kar h/c fics in existence at all, which I find very strange indeed. Have I missed some, maybe?

About the one I'm writing: will you believe I’m not quite sure if I’ll find the courage to have it beta’ed? Not because it’s bad, because it really isn't; I'm even kind of proud of it, in a way. But... Well, for some reason, having this one picked apart by a beta would make me feel more – vulnerable? Is that the word I'm looking for? – than I feel about other types of stories. Mostly, I guess, because showing people some of your fantasies (no matter how small, and no matter how innocent) is a scary, scary thing. And h/c is, perhaps, more about fantasies than a regular fic. Does that make sense, or is it just me?

Comments

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Aargh! I want to read this slowly and comment at length but the thrice-bedamned PTA is tonight!

I have written a couple of stories that were so personal and important (to me) that I didn't have them beta'd on purpose. I actually don't run the short ones by my beta any more; but the long ones, or ones for those 'outside' my fandom I still have her poke with a sharp stick. I'm still trying to figure out if I've ever written h/c. I have bits of it scattered about, but in longer pieces mostly. Carry On might be h/c, maybe?

I have got to go and see if I can get that fic up before I have to leave. Otherwise it'll be afterwards, and post-PTA is never a good time to do anything...I'll get back to this anon.

[amatara.livejournal.com]

Hm, English abbreviations are not my best point, it would appear. PTA would be... Parent-Teacher... something? :)

Yes, I can understand why you wouldn't want a story you just poured your soul into (not that we don't do that with all of our stories, in a way) to be picked apart by a beta. Sometimes what you care about most is whether the readers like it; other times the main point is the way it made/makes you feel when writing/reading it, and others should take it as it is, or not at all. Though I must say I've yet to write a story that's so personal I couldn't have it beta'd.

As for my h/c WIP - no idea whether it's the "being personal" that's the issue there... Plot-wise, it certainly isn't, because there's hardly plot. *g* (not that there's plot in most of my other fics, but okay.) And it's certainly not more emotional than other stuff I've written; in fact, I think it's closer, in a way, to comedy than anything I did before. So maybe it is quality I'm worried about after all - though not OOC-ness, or fluffiness, or the dialogue, because those I managed fine, I think. Perhaps it's just that I never wrote a pure clichéfic before, and I still have some lingering shame about writing a genre that so many people expect to be bad? But hey, clichéfics can be good, so why should I be ashamed, right? (Apart from that: I don't think we should ever feel shame for anything we write, actually, as long as we put a conscious effort into the writing. But that's another discussion.)

Yay, you got the story up! And I read Carry On too - left feedback at your journal. Loved it, by the way.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

PTA=Parent Teacher Association, and a sort of offering to the gods of community involvement. I think I would live my life inside my own head (and possibly online) if I didn't make myself do these things.

other times the main point is the way it made/makes you feel when writing/reading it

This is my main reason for writing, actually. Not to say I don't love comments and don't use criticism to improve what I write. But it fulfills a need in me, the entertainment and value to others is secondary (although very important).

Perhaps it's just that I never wrote a pure clichéfic before, and I still have some lingering shame about writing a genre that so many people expect to be bad?

That is interesting point. When I started writing, I had not read much fic, and had very little notion of the conventions and cliches. I have written stories based on song lyrics, for example, which I later read was 'not done'. Anyway, I think because my reasons for writing are internal, cliches matter less. Some of my stuff seems to be h/c. And fluff, there's fluff. And angst. At some point I engaged in quite a long discussion about the definition of angst but I'm not sure where. Do you have a definition for that category?

I've come up with some categories that may or may not be original. For instance I wrote a whole series of shorter pieces just about kissing. This was an exercise of sorts, because I couldn't write a decent kissing scene. Sort of self-assigned homework. Is there kissfic? Should there be? And a friend and I came up with the J/D category of dinnerfic.

In a lot of ways the categories (or cliches) seem limiting and unnecessary. As you point out, is it a cliche if it's good? I'll leave you with a quote I love, made by a commenter at Making Light (I have the username recorded somewhere; attribution lack mea culpa.)

"One person's stereotype is another person's archetype. One person's cliche is another person's trope."

My smaller son is stirring, so it's back to RL for the moment. Haven't had a chance to read the other comments or Small Mercies (!), but the tab is now open so there's hope for later today :)

[amatara.livejournal.com]

Hadn't forgotten this discussion yet - I've just been a bit busy, and am still trying to catch up. (I guess that's also an answer to your older question: nope, I'm not a natural at writing - I do it veeerrry sloooowwwly :) )

But it fulfills a need in me, the entertainment and value to others is secondary (although very important).

It's certainly about fulfilling a need in me, too, as I couldn't imagine writing something I don't feel like writing simply because someone is "expecting" me to. That's just the writing part, though; posting fic is something else entirely. Maybe that will change after I've written some more, but right now I'm still self-conscious enough about it that it matters very much to me what people think. If I suspected people wouldn't like a particular story, I wouldn't post it; and posting something without at least a quick beta still makes me feel uncomfortable. Not that I think that's how I should feel about it; in fact, I admire you endlessly for being able to say "this is my fic, I'm posting it, and what people think about it is secondary" - but I can't. Not yet, at least. And there are also stories I write purely for myself, that I know beforehand I'm never going to make public. Have you got these as well, or do you have the courage to post everything?

Cliches, categories, what is and isn't "done"... Well, I guess there's a reason for the categories, and why some of them are considered bad - but like with any rule, there are (sometimes many) exceptions, and I don't see why a decent writer shouldn't be able to write a good fic that's considered "cliche". And some of the fuss about things being "not done" I think is just fannish snobbishness.

Is angst supposed to be a cliche, too? Because - well, what's left, then, if fluff, crackfic and pwop are already clichés as well? :) As for the definition of angst: there's a tough question to answer! I have no idea what it means officially - not quite drama/tragedy, I guess, though what the difference is I couldn't say. I usually take it to mean putting your characters through emotionally intense situations; but as I've understood, some people assume that angst has to be excessive by definition? What's your interpretation?

Kissfic I love, love, love. Because it tends to be compact, and sweet, and sometimes angsty, and allows for great character exploration and intimacy without having to take it towards the sexual. And J/D dinnerfic: yes, totally! Just like for Londo and G'Kar there should be a category called snarkfic. :)

The quote is very lovely, and very true.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

"...I couldn't imagine writing something I don't feel like writing simply because someone is "expecting" me to."

I have done this exactly once, and it about killed me to finish the thing. That tale has many good points, and people liked it, but it just felt 'wrong' to me.

As for posting, I think I gave a different impression than I meant to. I go thru agonies before posting, and get quite depressed if I feel people don't like the thing. Still I post most of what I write. Fanfic, that is. I have written a few original things I don't think I'd post. Some I have. Is that brave, or foolhardy, or me not quite believing there are real people on the other end of the internet? Don't know! I use betas for long plotty things that get confusing, and anything I post outside the confines of B5 fandom circles (lgbtfest, femgenficathon, galpalficathon). I wanted to do matrithon, but I was in a terrific slump when that got started.) Anyway, I don't beta the short stuff; not sure why. Maybe it's because I can't quite get over thinking I'm taking up my beta's valuable time. She laughs at me a lot.

Oh, angst. I think it's all about the emotional drama (as opposed to action drama), with or mostly without much plot driving it. A good deal of what I write would fall there, I think, because I focus on J/D so much, and particularly later on, towards the twenty year limit. Tragedy is a good word.

I really like snarkfic (the term and the fic!) I sometimes write Marcus snarkfic. BTW, could you tell me which episode it is that G'Kar and Vir have their encounter in the elevator? I actually had a thought for a G'Kar fic, or at least a title and a last line growled at me, but I need to watch that scene again first.

As for kissfic, have you ever read this essay by Victoria Redel?
http://vjs2259.livejournal.com/42397.html#cutid1
It's a lovely thing.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Have you read andrastewhite's Camera Obscura (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1856807/1/Camera_Obscura)? It's a missing scene from The Summoning, and what I'd call an ideal Londo/G'Kar hurt/comfort fic. There is no sex, true, and a good thing, too, because G'Kar has just been whipped and really wouldn't be in the mood, but there is emotional intimacy, and caring through snark, which fits the pairing best.

As for h/c in general: yes, dosage is key. Also, the comfort must be in balance to the hurt: what I mean is not that there must be equal of both, but that if someone is, say, raped, to use of of the trickiest and most popular fanfic clichés, I just don't believe an ending where this person is just fine and dandy after receiving comfort from character x. (Certainly not sexual comfort, but that's another issue. Let's say we're talking about strictly emotional comfort here.) I could, however, believe raped character y to have some hope in the future again depending on how her/his interaction with x is written and of course depending on what types of characters they are in general. Or say someone loses a child, either in canon or in the story. That's not going to go away ever. I'd be more inclined to believe a h/c story where the parent is beginning to deal with this kind of loss due to the help of character x than a story which tries to sell me on the healing being completely accomplished. Etc.

[amatara.livejournal.com]

Camera Obscura: yes, I had read it! It's even one of my favorites from andrastewhite, but for some reason I didn't recall it as an h/c story. You're right, though, it is, even if it doesn't really fit the usual description of the genre - but then again, with Londo/G'Kar, as you say, the typical h/c tropes wouldn't work. Strangely, I still can't find anything remotely h/c in your stories for the pairing - except if you'd count that kissage snippet you just added to the list.

From you're "There is no sex, true" - should I read that to mean that most people expect sex in a h/c story? Because I'm mostly on the other side of the fence, I think, except in some rare cases where the writer is skilled enough to convince me otherwise.

Yes, I agree: dosage, balance, those are the things that sell it to me, as well. A good plot is a plus, but not essential - though that, too, mostly hinges on the skill of the writer; it's harder to get it right when you don't have a plot to rely on, as style and characterization should do all the work. Maybe that's why I'm so twitchy about writing, um - well, this thing it is I'm writing now. There's no real plot, and the premise was fixed by the request (which was, essentially, for h/c on Centauri Prime in s5, involving another attempt on Londo's life), so dialogue and backstory are really all I have to work with. In fact, I would never have had the courage to post something like that if it hadn't been a request - meaning the request was a good thing (or could be, depending on what comes out :) ). Do you have any stories that you wrote on request or as response to ficathon promts, that you'd otherwise never have written, but liked anyway when they were finished?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

From you're "There is no sex, true" - should I read that to mean that most people expect sex in a h/c story?

I got the impression, but then again, it was by fannish osmosis rather than direct questioning and polls. Maybe I'm wrong about other people's expectations, of course. My own, like yours, tend to be that it's the exception rather than the rule when an author can convince me people want to have sex under these circumstances.

Do you have any stories that you wrote on request or as response to ficathon promts, that you'd otherwise never have written, but liked anyway when they were finished?

Abso-fraggin-lutely, as Delenn would say. The Remix Redux ficathon, for example, caused me to write Survival (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4220540/1/Survival); while I enjoyed watching the tv series Rome, I otherwise wouldn't have written fanfiction set in it, being too married to direct historical fiction set in that era. iamsab dared me to write Kira/Dukat for DS9. To quote from my author's notes, this has obvious obstacles in canon, and we’re talking pre-“Waltz” Dukat here. However, I saw it as a challenge – would it be possible to explore that particular relationship, and not necessarily just in a sexual sense, without changing Kira into a Harlequin heroine or changing Dukat into a whitewashed Knight? Then I recalled the “Five Things Which Never Happened...” format which I have used before, in another fandom, and suddenly everything clicked. In a rather dark way.*g* And presto, Five things which never happened between Kira and Dukat (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1775250/1/Five_Things_Which_Never_Happened). And then there was hobsonphile, for Multiverse2005, prompting a B5/Firefly crossover, with a requested Vir/Inara pairing. This caused me considerable headaches in advance, way more than gen prompts for the Multiverse ficathon I had written before and after, like "Bester meets Garak" or "Garak meets Torchwood", and at last I pulled it off and wrote Pretty in Pink (http://www.altogetherelsewhere.net/multiverse/prettyinpink.html).

Oh, and lastly, for something purely B5: Visiting Hour (http://selenak.livejournal.com/254488.html) was written for a B5 ficathon where my prompt had been “Anna/Morden, something that’s both fucked up and includes Morden’s family in some way, be it as a comment or a reason for his actions”. The later was a clear allusion to the tie-in novel The Shadow Within, featuring what I nicknamed Woobie!Morden. (He did it all to save his family.) An idea I loathe. And even if I didn't, Anna/Morden would not have been something I ordinarily would have thought of. And there was the not so small issue that any Anna/Morden taking place after she got modified by the Shadows and before her death would have been non-con, as she hardly was in a position to knowingly consent to sex in that state. Which would have fit the criteria "fucked up" but presumably not in the way the prompter had wished for, plus I didn't want to write it. (Not into rape fic, me.) So the challenge was to me to write something I could believe without compromising my own view of the character while also writing something to make the prompter happy. I'm pretty proud of the result.

Strangely, I still can't find anything remotely h/c in your stories for the pairing - except if you'd count that kissage snippet you just added to the list.

*g* My big B5 hurt/comfort story is Miracles for Londo and Vir. I think generally speaking I have elements of hurt and comfort in stories but usually mixed and mingled with other story needs.

[amatara.livejournal.com]

Firstly: 'From you're "There is no sex, true"...' Aargh! Of all the embarrassing typos in the world, why did I have to make that one! Ahem - 'xcuse me.

Hmm, looks like I should start digging through your Multiverse output sometime... *g* I have to admit I haven't read any of the stories you mentioned, apart from Miracles (which I liked very much; and yes, when it comes to hurt/comfort Vir is the natural choice to pair - platonically, I mean - with Londo). Your Anna/Morden fic I'm sure I at least skimmed once, but I'm not sure why I never went back to read it entirely; must have slipped my mind somehow. But I'll remedy that! I'll probably wait to read your DS9 stuff until I'm a bit more familiar with the show. Which shouldn't be a problem, as I just bought s2 and s3 on DVD - as well as s2 of New Who, by the way!

First impression of David Tennant, after watching Christmas Invasion: not undisputedly positive (I still feel like he's overdoing it a bit), but much better than I expected! I think I'm going to adjust to him just fine. :) Rose, on the other hand, is starting to irritate me more with every passing second, just as my heart is going out to Mum and Mickey more and more. So now she thinks she's in love with him? Gah. I hope canon doesn't go too far in shipping them, at least? *doubtful look* And, now that we're talking about h/c - I must say I found it very funny, not to say typical, given that Ten is (in appearance, at least) cuter-looking and more "woobifyable" than Nine, the first thing they do is have him faint and spend three-quarters of the episode either unconscious in bed, or delirious. :-) (I can see why they wanted to do it in order to explain regeneration shock, but - really!)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Christmas Invasion is actually my least favourite of the Christmas specials, but that's an unsual choice, most fans do like it.

Regeneration shock: yes, really. The Nine-to-Ten regeneration isn't even the most extreme case. Two-to-Three and Four-to-Five come to mind for lying in bed or elsewhere in delirium for about three quarters of their introduction stories, which due to the different format meant about an hour in screentime at least. The most extreme case so far was Five-to-Six because Six went crazy and tried to strangle his companion. But the fact we don't actually see much of Ten is one of the reasons why I don't like The Christmas Invasion nearly as much as the other Christmas specials.

Rose: has a reality shock coming in episode three which gives Mickey some great scenes (when they meet Sarah Jane, aka a companion of old). As for the shipping, well. She does leave at the end of s2, if that helps.

[maspalio.livejournal.com]

I think characterisation and dosage are both equally important.
Characterisation because, for me at least, fanfic is about the characters I love, and that's especially true in genres that are all about the relationship between characters. And h/c, like shipping, is about relationship. If the characters are OOC, then I might as well be reading an original story and the emotional connection is lost.

And dosage, yes, and balance between hurt and comfort. I think we can all agree on those points.

About the "h/c = badfic" thing: I think it's because h/c is some sort of "emotional kink", if that makes sense. It's about fantasies, as you said. Not everyone is going to like it, some people are going to be squicked by it and some people will swear nothing good can come of it, ever.
The same thing could be said of, for example, mpreg -I personally go out of my way to avoid mpreg, but it doesn't mean all mpreg fics are bad. It's just that, no matter how good the writer is, I will feel uncomfortable because... it's just not my thing.
And that's why, imho, such genres don't need excuses to be written.

[amatara.livejournal.com]

Ah, so it seems we're all in agreement: dosage, characterization; no comfort sex, and no mpreg. I feel much better about the story already - this is going to turn out just fine. *g*

Emotional kink - yes, that's it exactly! I have the same reflex with mpreg, and had it with slash for a long time; I'm still quite easily squicked by slash and het alike, by the way, if it's less than tastefully done. But I won't go around writing negative comments on those stories, because as you say, there's no accounting for taste; and any type of fantasy or kink or whatever you call it, is a purely personal thing that can't always be explained in a rational way. And just because it's so personal, it's so easy to feel ashamed or uncertain about it, I guess. For myself, I can bear to be told that aspects of a story are only so-so; however, I don't think I could bear it if someone came and went "I hate your story, because this weird kink of yours is distasteful", even if I know said person had absolutely no right saying that. On the other hand, somewhere there is a line between what's distasteful and what isn't - only, where is it, and who gets to decide that? Rapefic I think is bordering the line pretty hard, and some things, like kicking on child abuse, would plain cross it... But that's a whole other kind of discussion, I guess.

About stories: there wouldn't happen to be a print option on that site where you posted your story, would there? I looked for one, but couldn't find any. I'd love to print it out, as 20+ pages is something I'd prefer to read in the sofa, rather than from a computer screen. :)
Incidentally - passé simple? Wow. Haven't come across that since French courses in high school - but of course, I haven't read much French since then. Is it often used in fiction, or was it a deliberate choice of yours?

[maspalio.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, somewhere there is a line between what's distasteful and what isn't - only, where is it, and who gets to decide that?

There is a line, yes, but I think it's hard to draw it because what is distasteful or not varies from person to person. Also, a good writer can come closer to that line and still remain tasteful, so I guess it's some kind of moving line.


Here's the pdf (http://www.inlibroveritas.net/telecharger/ebook_gratuit/oeuvre25340.html) for my story. I won't mind if you give up before the end, though. I know it's pretty long.
And yes, passé simple is used quite often in works of fiction.

[amatara.livejournal.com]

Oo, thanks! Downloaded already, though I probably won't be able to read until Sunday (due to tomorrow being the yearly family reunion). And don't worry, I don't intend to give up halfway. When I start reading a book (or story) I always want to finish it! :)