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Meme leads to meta: Slash, WNG and how grey the grey zone really is
Edit: Some tweaks made to the post, because I probably got a little too defensive the first time around, despite my best intentions not to. What I haz learned today: meta should not equal rant. *sheepish grin* Also: offering my feverish head as (feeble) excuse, as shiveriness has evolved to full-blown cold. Meaning excused from work today, but not too sick for LJ and DVDs - there is mercy in the universe. :)
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A little shivery today, so just a quick copy-and-paste of a post prepared this morning, and then off to blankets, chocolate pudding, and tea. *yearns*
First of all, before I lose myself in rambling, let me post the meme that got me thinking about all of this stuff. Gacked from
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penknife and nolivingman. Because it's fun, and these days I'm in a bit of a mood where I love to talk about pairings. My main fandoms are in my profile, if you're wondering. ---
Ask me a fandom, and I will tell you:
+ OTP
+ Runner-up
+ Honorable mention(s)
+ Crack pairing(s)
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't
---
Now - I'm sure this debate has been done to death several times already, so I'm not planning to kick up a big cloud of dust all over again. However, something I just read on LJ made me think, real hard, about my own position on this, which makes it worth to at least throw some random thoughts on here and ask for other opinions.
What it's about: the notion of WNGWJLEO ("we're not gay we just love each other"), WNG in short, which I bumped into a number of times and was consistently puzzled by for a number of reasons; how slash fic deals (can deal? should deal?) with real-life issues of gender and sexuality; and how I look at the sexuality of my own preferred pairings and what that says (might say? should say?) about me.
How it started: with an entirely reasonable statement made by nolivingman with regards to Babylon 5 pairings, being that she couldn't see Londo and G'Kar's relationship taken into the realm of the sexual, as both of them had always appeared to her as "relentlessly straight".
Now, firstly, I cannot stress enough I have no problems at all with this statement, and nothing I say below is in any way a rant on it or the person who made it. What it did do, however, was getting me to recall and reconsider all of the questions I just listed above the cut, because - in truth, I've seldom looked at characters in slash fics as "straight" or "not straight" before, except in those rare cases (like Susan/Talia) where canon provided the "not straight" answer for us. And I started to wonder whether this was a shortcoming of mine, and how other writers that dabble in slash feel about it.
About the first half of the statement: that, as should surprise no one, I see a bit differently (everyone is just staggered by surprise *g*). Yes, I can go towards the sexual with them, because it presses my angst buttons, and also for the perfectly irrational reason it makes me go a little weak in the knees. However, it might be a good moment to start wondering why. You see - I'm consistently difficult to please when it comes to romantic pairings, and even with those I do like, my preference will mostly lie with the platonic. In order for me to be drawn towards the sexual, the pairing has to be in character, and feel plausible to me plot-wise, and it has to strike the right emotional note in order to ring my bell - which, in truth, doesn't happen very often when it comes to pairings in general and non-canon pairings in particular. With slash it's even rarer, for no reason I can pinpoint; I just don't feel the tingle of "ooh, sex!" very often there. Give me platonic Kirk/Spock/McCoy any time; give me sweet Remus/Sirius or Tigh/Adama buddytalk; there can even be a hint (or more than a hint) of UST lurking just below the surface, but the moment the fic author starts naming body parts, I will usually slink away very quietly and think cottony thoughts of friendship and cuddling. Same for writing fic: as of yet, I have written all but one fic that's even vaguely slashy in nature, and even there the slash is limited to two paragraphs of quite restrained kissage. (So for anyone who thinks I'm a slash writer: I'm not. My mouth is just bigger than my brain sometimes. *g*)
(A question. Something I've been confused about for years, and it's not getting any clearer: do slash and het fics involve sex by definition? Or is, for example, your typical platonic h/c also categorized with the slash rather than the ampersand, because the motivation of the author is most often shippiness, even if the fic's execution never takes the characters there?)
Strangely, Londo/G'Kar is the first slash pairing that I've really felt deeply about, and when I start to dig for reasons and motivations and in-characterness of the pairing, things invariably get fuzzy around the edges. Which is why the "relentlessly straight" remark made me turn around and blink. Thinking about their sexual orientation, I'm forced to agree with the remark, and admit that, despite all of those silly marriage jokes that canon gave us, neither of them was ever hinted at as being anything other than straight. For Londo we were introduced to Adira, and Timov, and his first dancer wife he loved dearly and divorced because his family demanded it. And G'Kar had - well, "animal magnetism" (his own words, not mine *g*) with Centauri females, as well as a healthy curiosity for Lyta. And that, in turn, made me think of that dreaded WNG trope, and - well, suddenly I'm finding myself wondering: I'm not being guilty of that here, now, aren't I? My gut feeling says no, but... is that actually true?
First of all, I think we should clarify what we'll take the the trope to mean, actually, because different people seem to understand it in different ways. Googling led to two main definitions, one quite general, the other more specific:
Definition #1: "Someone is mostly heterosexual (or homosexual) except for one exception. This is often an implicit assumption in slash fic that tries to pair characters that are generally portrayed as heterosexual."
Definition #2: "A type of story where the characters are "strictly heterosexual" except for their one true love who happens to be of the same sex. They do not consider themselves gay or bisexual, and in fact much emphasis is often made in the story to stress how much they are still heterosexual--except for this one exception. The characters often face a great deal of anguish over their same-sex love and only come to accept it through difficult circumstances. The trope is often criticized in ficdom for its perceived homophobia; as such it's now an almost thoroughly Discredited Trope in slash fic."
As far as I've noticed, the consensus seems to be that WNG, whatever it's taken to mean, is bad bad bad and not something one wishes to confess to or be accused of doing. Yet I have no idea which of the above two explanations is the most generally accepted. #2 I get, and although I've never read a fic that made it that explicit, I'm pretty sure I would have a problem with it, too. #1, however - that's more difficult. As I gathered from discussions online, at least some people believe that when a fic pairs same-sex characters who were, in the show, never shown in any but heterosexual relationships, the fic should provide at least an acknowledgment of said characters not being heterosexual. Which I don't quite know what to make of.
Now, I think it's not just about fics and what they do or don't acknowledge. I'd say most of us agree that:
(1) a good fic is generally one that presents characters and relationships (straight or not, canonic or not) in a realistic way that fits with the spirit and worldview of canon. With which I don't imply that canon is holy, and that relationships not hinted at by canon can never work in a fic; or that the "realism" should be taken to the extreme. I rather mean that characterization is the essence, and if that fits, everything can be written well and realistically - AUs, fluff, crackfic, slash, anything.
(2) It's hardly realistic to expect all slashfic to actively break a lance against homophobia and how it fits into their fandom's worldview. However, it is fair to ask how a slash writer feels about their characters' sexual orientation.
So the big question, I think, comes down to this: if you're asked whether the characters from your favorite slash pairing are gay/bi - what do you reply? And if the reply is "No, but..." - does that make you guilty of anything? Homophobia? Denial? Irrealism? Naïveté?
For Londo/G'Kar, which is what sparked this post in the first place, my answer I think is "No, but." So, what does that say about me? Not that I'm a homophobe, I'm sure. What I might, possibly, accept, is that I'm being shallow and/or unrealistic when giving this answer - although, honestly, I don't believe I am. Let me tell you my take on it, and then y'all can tell me yours.
The truth is, I don't write or read fic in order to break a lance for real-life sociological or political issues. I do find those issues important, and I do speak out for them in RL, but that's RL and this is fandom, and I try to mix the two as little as possible. I think it's my "writer's duty", so to speak, to portray characters, whether straight or gay, as in-character and as realistically as possible; but I write for enjoyment, mine and that of anyone who's reading, and I will not make politically loaded statements in a fic. My fic is my escape. That can be perceived as shallow, but it's a choice - and one I will respect in other writers as much as I respect the opposite choice.
Finally, about Londo/G'Kar in particular: In what sense am I being realistic when I pair them?
Three things that I can see. (1) I do espect and cherish all their other canon (het) relationships, as do most other fans of the pairing that I know of. (2) Much as I can enjoy the sex, I'm just as happy to read and write fic about them that sticks purely to friendship - as do most of the other fans of the pairing that I know of. (Note that I'm talking about this pairing, not slash in general; I haven't experienced firsthand how shippers in other fandoms behave, though I suspect the tolerance is not always as wide-spread. *mumbleK/S=OTP?mumble*) (2) Despite all my silly squeeing about them having to elope together, I don't ship Londo/G'Kar in the in the literal OTP romantic twue wuve kind of way. Realistically, if Londo could have his happily ever after, it would be with Adira as his wife, perhaps joined by Timov, and G'Kar as his friend and conscience and the one to kick him in the shins if he strays. And if G'Kar could have his happy ending, he would be on Narn among his people, rebuilding, writing, teaching, with Londo as a bittersweet but distant memory. Unfortunately, canon doesn't give us a happily ever after. There's only isolation and loneliness, both of them cut off from their own people, and no occasion for either of them to have love and intimacy in a single package anymore. Realistically, people in such situations tend to go looking for comfort in any place still open to them - and one such place for these two characters, at the point in canon I'm thinking of, is each other. Hence, one motivation for my reading and writing fic about them that isn't just about the friendship/enmity. Note that I did not say this is my only reason for loving the ship. It also involves arguments of a less rational type. :)
In any case, I think no one should be ashamed of liking a ship for reasons that are not rational. There's no reason that I see why a fic can't be entirely for fun, just because thinking of those two characters together gives you that sweet tingly feeling. And there will always be people who like those fics, and people who don't, and people who are bothered by the fact you skim over gender issues so lightly, and that's okay too. This is just my opinion, of course, but I'd say: if doing something makes you happy, and your heart is in the right place, and you're not an ass about it to other people (*note to self: this is important* *g*), just do it; you don't need reasons. And that applies to shipping as well as to anything else in life. :)
Hmm, I just remembered I started this post with something in the style of "not kicking up a big cloud of dust", and I've ended up doing exactly that, it would appear. *g* My problem is I tend to get too carried away.
But, really - what do you think, dear fic writers and readers? How is it with your favorite pairings? Have you ever asked yourself this question about your beloved characters, and if so, is your answer different from mine? Does the type of fandom play a role? I'd very much like to hear.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with WNGWJLEO, or fics that are there to hit your kinks, whatever they may be. It seems like in fandom we sometimes feel we have to go to great lengths to prove that whatever we like is the only logically supported conclusion from canon, but sometimes we should just admit that we like the shiny.
Oh, and that post of mine that you linked to is friends-locked (as is my entire LJ). Can you remove the link? It's okay to quote me, but it's probably not fair to link to an entry people can't read.
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Star Trek TOS: Indeed. :) In fact, those characters are perfect examples of where I really do not try to go beyond the platonic.
It seems like in fandom we sometimes feel we have to go to great lengths to prove that whatever we like is the only logically supported conclusion from canon, but sometimes we should just admit that we like the shiny.
Agreed completely, although, I'm fairly sure I did admit to liking the shiny, and even said I didn't have a problem with anyone else doing exactly that. :)
(as in 'Which is not entirely the same as my reasons for shipping them - those are of a less rational type altogether' and 'There's no reason that I see why a fic can't be entirely for fun, just because thinking of those two characters together gives you that sweet tingly feeling'.) And it was never my intention to suggest that this is the only logically supported conclusion from canon for me - I was actually trying hard to make the opposite point.
Also, I sincerely hope this did not come across as a rant against you or anything you said; as I mentioned (and that was serious, not ironic or so), all of what you said was perfectly reasonable, and even made me doubt myself just a bit. Hence the post - it started out from self-criticism more than anything else. But if any of this gave you a different impression, I do apologize - and will rectify, too, if you tell me. Language barrier, lack of time and overflow of enthusiasm sometimes make it hard for me to get delicate points across. What I actually wanted to do was to bring up a point some people have a problem with and explain why I don't, without passing judgment on anyone else. But maybe I didn't get that quite right, then. *scratches head*
(Edit: I reworked the post a little, 'cause I felt that was probably for the best. :) Thanks for reading and commenting.)
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If I could find it I would point you to a discussion of sex on the continuum I got into at one point on my LJ. Suffice it to say, I can imagine almost any pairing, but do think that some are just not indicated in canon (not that I've ever let that stop me. Lennier/Ivanova anyone?), and definitely there are some that don't DO anything for me. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
Londo and G'Kar are shown in canon in heterosexual relationships solely. Does that mean nothing else could ever happen? Of course not. We don't even know their culture's attitudes towards homo or bi or omnisexuality. Might be totally accepted. Might be okay for the upper echelon. Might be okay for males but not for females. Who knows? Have at it! There's certainly enough emotional entanglement there. Not enough for me, but it is there.
Short answer, you're not guilty of anything in particular.
I will quibble with this: "Because, much as I enjoy the sex, I'm just as happy to read and write fic about them that sticks purely to friendship - as do most other fans of the pairing." I do find plenty of slash fans who insist on their interpretation over all others, and as a result, there's a lot more slash than gen out there...but as I am not keeping a tally, I could well be wrong.
There was more to this rambling excuse for a comment, but my brain's fried tonight.
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Further - yes, to everything you say: a pairing either rings your bell or it doesn't. Also, by saying "a fic should fit with the spirit of canon" I never wanted to imply (gah, I did a bad job bringing my points across, didn't I? Guess I'll just have to take this as lesson #1 in writing meta *g*) I think a relationship in a fic has to be supported by canon. I rather meant the opposite: ideally, you should have a plausible way of bringing your characters together that doesn't clash entirely with how canon showed them to us - but there's no reason why you can't expand on canon or twist it a little. As far as I've seen, AUs like your Lennier/Ivanova do exactly that.
"I'm just as happy to read and write fic about them that sticks purely to friendship - as do most other fans of the pairing." Well, here I was talking exclusively about this pairing; there aren't that many authors out there, but the ones I do know have written both slash and pure gen about the pairing - as well as het (think Londo/Timov or G'Kar/lyta), for that matter. As I said, I've never really been involved in another slash pairing, so I have no idea how (a)typical that is - from what I heard, it's indeed the case that slash fans tend to be rather focused on "that one OTP".
*fidgets*
I really jumped into the hornet's nest, didn't I? I might go through the post again and tweak it a little - make it a little more objective, maybe. That might be a good idea. Yes. *nods*
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B5 fandom seems to fall into pairing camps (not armed camps or anything, but camps). I've always tried to be open about it, writing anything and anyone, but you know, you do tend to write what you want to read, and what pings for you. So my focus is J/D, but not exclusively.
I've always wondered why we can't invoke IDIC in these situations. It seems to fit the non-OTP mindset.
Your post is not a problem. Discussion is good!
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I wasn't aware of the B5 pairing camps; in fact, I don't think I noticed anything like "shipping wars" in the fandom yet, contrary to what happens in some others (Kirk/Spock vs Spock/Uhura after STXI? Harry/Hermione vs Hermione/Ron after HP7?) Or have I just missed all of that? I do get the impression people fall for different groups of characters: Humans and Minbari vs Narn and Cantauri, and Susan/Talia in a category of its own... But are there actually debates on the supremacy of, say, canon Delenn/Sheridan over AU Delenn/Lennier?
It's the same for me - I try to be open and just read good stories by what I think of as good authors, irrespective of the pairing. But as you say, when time is short, one has the tendency to focus on what rings one's own bell. I'd never read any J/D before I read yours, if you'll believe it. :) And I'm still hoping to get around to your Lennier/Ivanova some day soon.
As for Londo / or & G'Kar fic: the ampersand variety of fics still outweighs the slash, I daresay, though there seems to be a bit of a persistent myth about it being the other way around. *g* Some of my favorites that are absolutely non-slashy:
From
From
From
From me: Acts of Contrition (http://amatara.livejournal.com/1428.html) (early s5 L&G) and Desiderata (http://amatara.livejournal.com/8691.html) (Londo/Timov with a hint of G'Kar and Vir).
All of the above authors write both gen and slash, by the way, so it's not that they see the pairing as the only "truth".
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I also have a tendency to play devil's advocate in discussions, which I have to curb since emoticons only go so far in conveying tone online. I can easily end up arguing for the opposite of my own viewpoint. I am told this confuses people ;)
Thanks sincerely for the recs. No promises as to when I can get to them, but I appreciate it.
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Don't worry, when I get confused by any of your arguments, I'll let you know. :)
As for the recs: oh, no promises needed at all. I love the characters and the authors who write them, hence I love reccing them, and I agree that it's hard sometimes to separate the gen from the slash - when it's mild slash, it's often not even mentioned, so I see where that'd be off-putting for someone who's looking for gen. And seeing how you recommended "The pictures of Regent Virini" to me, I thought these fics would be your thing, too.
How is the G'Kar and Na'Toth and Vir fic coming along, by the way? (not rushing you, just getting curious)
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The fic is done. I'll start posting my backlog now the Love Month is over.
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Hmm. Maybe it's best if Londo doesn't drop by too often. We keep slightly different hours.
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And - I appreciate your being so gentle in not pointing out that I'd just said something that made no sense, but please, if I'd happen to do it again (which I'll try not to), do tell me, all right? :)
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In my experience there are a small but very vocal number of slash fans that insist that there needs to be sex--and not fade to black, but show-it-all sex--to be slash. For some people "slash" means "gay porn." But in my experience, the larger majority of readers get a deep pleasure from implied sex or from simple friendship stories. I write the full range in my pairing (although I'll admit I usually go for a full romance rather than friendship-only), and I'm always surprised at how many comments I get on stories where the slash is muted to the point of not existing. Some of the comments are pleas to up the ante, but a lot of people simply enjoy the interaction. I think Londo/G'Kar would definitely fit that mold.
I think for me, in my experience (you'll note I'm a hedger, I almost never will just say "this is true!" lol), "We're not Gay, We Just Love Each Other" is only a problem in a setting that problematizes being gay. That is, especially when slash was first getting started in the 70s and 80s, characters had a tendency to make announcements along the lines of "We're not some kind of deviant pansies, we're manly men...who happen to love each other." Of course that's awful, because it devalues the experience of being gay entirely and tries to separate our beloved characters from that nasty group.
But I think more modern takes on the trope are more like...an assumption that the characters (and in fact, most characters) are fundamentally bi and just haven't run into the right person of the same sex yet. I very rarely see characters struggling with the realization that they're gay or angsting over it, it's just generally a sort of "Sure, I can admire both men and women, it's just I've never gotten around to dating a man until now." I'm sure there are still problems with that take on it, but it's not quite as unpleasant as the more traditional "We're not gay, but..."
I think it's natural to be drawn to male characters who share a powerful emotional bond, and sometimes to ask "What if that bond led to something physical?" If you have two characters who share something with each other that they share with no other being, it makes sense to hypothesize a next step. But it's also just fun to read and write stories that enjoy the intensity of the bond as is. For me personally, that's why I can't enjoy pairings created solely for the "pretty factor"--let's say, Marcus/Byron. There's no emotional bond there to play on, which to me makes it solely about the sex, which is (for me) not at all the most interesting part of a slash relationship, it's just a rather natural result of hat most interesting part.
^-^ I've rambled, so sorry if I misunderstood any of your thoughts!
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Oh, I'm just the same! In any case, I'd say (see? Adding "I'd say" as a reflex: point proven! :) ) questions of this type don't have a one-fits-all answer; the whole discussion is so very personal that most arguments will be emotional ones. Which makes it a potentially dangerous discussion to have, but also a very valuable one. And you haven't misunderstood a thing - in fact, you may have been understanding some of my questions better than I did myself. ;)
I can find myself in all of your points, really, including the modern take on the trope. I've also been pondering things like the Kinsey scale and that, apart from some exceptions, we're all somewhat bi in the sense that we can be drawn to both sexes, if the circumstances are right, even if we tend to "default" towards one or the other. Still, as you say, that take can have its problems too, because heterosexuality is the generally accepted norm in our society, Kinsey scale or not. But I think it's only natural most of us feel the need to idealize a bit - that's what fanfic is for, no? - and restrictions imposed by our society are the first thing that gets brushed away. As long as it's just escapism and not denial that such restrictions do exist in RL, I personally don't have any problems with it. Of course, it also helps when the universe a pairing is set in is not our own. That's true with the B5 universe, and probably also with your Batman/Superman 'verse: they're futuristic enough that such issues may be viewed entirely differently in that society, and also (with B5 in any case) so heavily dramatized that a little escapism doesn't seem out of place.
I have a similar feeling about not going for the "pretty factor". PWP I can appreciate if the backstory of the pairing (as created either by canon or by the author) is rich enough, but if that is lacking, I'd be giving up really soon. Friendship stories I can enjoy with or without the sexual aspect, even though I have huge soft spot for stories that manage both the friendship and a realistic take on sexuality. That goes for het as well as for slash relationships.
Incidentally - are there really Marcus/Byron fics around ?? Or were you just coming up with the most improbable pairing in the 'verse? *g*
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That's true--it's a little dodgy with comics because they do (very, very rarely) show homophobia in action, but it's not too hard to imagine that the "superhero community" is too enlightened to draw such distinctions. :) But yeah, I do think part of the appeal of scifi fandoms (and most intense fandoms tend to have fantasy or scifi in them) is the feeling that this could be a world where sexuality isn't much of an issue anymore. Susan and Talia help a lot in B5, just by being quietly there.
Incidentally - are there really Marcus/Byron fics around ?? Or were you just coming up with the most improbable pairing in the 'verse? *g*
LOL, I was just reaching for the two most traditionally "pretty" male characters in B5, I've never seen a fic with them together. That would be quite a crack pairing, though--the flowing lock quota would be surpassed by quite a lot.